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I wouldn’t mourn at all..

…if their brand of posting finally has caught up to them and subsequently resulted in them getting sued and/or led to the removal of said sites from the blogosphere. It would make it a much less wingnutty place online (though I’m sure the “fans” of said sites would just migrate somewhere else)

I see that the realization of what they done has sunk in to at least one of them, but I’ll be honest; I still believe the lot of them deserve to get sued by Mr. Warman for initiating an online smear campaign against a man who was described by the CJC as “honourable” and the target of unnecessary vilification.

UPDATE: I see via Dawg’s site (via his original link from above, as I refuse to give those folks direct links) that FD is still insisting on going down with the ship.. er.. sticking to its story. Good for them… I mean.. good for the rest of us.

UPDATE 2: Mike of Rational Reasons, who works in the computer field, gives a detailed response of why the IP in question gives our FD folks no proof of any specific user – let alone Mr. Warman.

11 comments to I wouldn’t mourn at all..

  • Sheebalasvegas

    It’s funny, I have a cousin who is trying to tell me that Roger’s can’t track IP’s of their customers and he can DL’d anything and everything he wants and no one knows lol.

    No, he’s not running any program, just thinks that because he’s in Canada where we have few privacy cases going on at the moment, that he can do what he likes. It’s only true up until the point they change the law, but trying to tell him this is like banging your head against the wall lol.

  • Rob Thompson

    Re: IP addresses and such.  While it is absolutely correct that NAT, spoofing, wardriving, etc. are possible, it is also correct that they aren’t likely.  And, while narrowing down the addresses to what is apparently the likely network segment for Warman’s connection is indicative, it’s also circumstantial.

    However, absolute confirmation of the person IS available, or was – the MAC address of the customer premise router should have been logged by Rogers Cable when it obtained the IP address.  This is how they prevent and record theft of internet service, as it is linked to the customer account, and this data is most likely saved for quite some time.

  • kursk

    I wrote the letter that is referred to in WK’s column.I asked the opinion of Bernie Farber on what he felt in regards to this issue.I was replied to by Len Rudner, and posted his comments.

    Apparantly, that makes me a flying monkey?
    I can assure you i have no wings!

    I do find it amusing that their ‘investigation’ consisted of checking transcripts, and coming to a pre-determined conclusion regarding Mr.Warman.

    What is also chuckle worthy is their assertion, that this fop is an ‘honourable’ man.Honourable men don’t systematically abuse the system they were so gainfully employed by (and so intimately familiar with, in regards to playing ..)

    Honourable men do not treat due process with contempt in order to score cheap points, nor do they do so to enrich themselves.

    WK can blather on about holes being dug, but the only thing being buried is Richard Warmans chances of ever appearing before another CHRC tribunal. 

  • Holmwood

    Mike’s ARIN dump contains no real useful information, especially since the entry was updated in the database in 2006. The IP address was apparently used by Mr. Warman in November 2003, and by someone in September 2003 to post the hateful post on Senator Anne Cools.

    Mike’s argument that Rogers rotates IP addresses "every three weeks or so" does not conform with my experiences in 2003 with Rogers. I went months with the same IP address, and that included repeatedly powering off the cable modem and attached devices.

    Only by releasing my lease did I tend to get a new IP address, and even that was not always certain. This is not a procedure the average computer user goes through, and Mr Warman has stated in testimony that he is no computer expert.

    Perhaps my experience is unique; perhaps not.

    "Throw in a NAT, and you can’t even tell which computer it was".

    This comes across as sophistry. Are you seriously suggesting that Mr Warman and his neighbors were all sharing a single IP address? And that someone else in Mr Warman’s home — or, in contravention of Rogers terms of service, hooked into Mr Warman’s router — made the offending post?

    Moreover, the available information, if Free Dominion is posting accurately, and if no one altered the logs at freedomsite, indicates that this was a Windows 98 machine running IE 6.0.

    The OS alone (Windows 98) represented about 12% of the internet-browsing computers outstanding in Fall 2003, according to the statistics at w3schools.com. Couple that with the particular browser variant (IE6) and we drop below 10%.

    "Consider an open wifi access point and it could have been someone wardriving"

    You’re asking us to believe that someone using a computer running Windows 98 and IE6 drove outside Mr Warman’s house — and that he was running a WiFi router in 2003 (which he does not state in testimony, referring only to his computer and his cable modem) and posted racist messages.

    Yes, this is possible. No, it is not likely. This would be a laptop equipped with wireless and running Windows 98. A wardriver, with a wireless laptop, in 2003, running Windows 98? Please. This gets into alien abduction territory in terms of probability, for anyone who knows about wardriving.

    Similarly, someone spoofing his IP address is highly improbable. Beyond alien abduction territory, in my view. Granted, not impossible, merely astoundingly unlikely.

    More likely possibilities:
    1. Free Dominion has posted false information. Unlikely but possible.
    2. Freedomsite altered its logs. Unlikely, given the withdrawal of the Cools post as an element of complaint. But not impossible.
    3. Rogers did indeed reassign the IP, as Mark argues, and someone using the exact same OS and browser as Mr. Warman made a racist post on a lightly trafficked racist website. The most likely explanation, and one that seems improbable. Yet Mr. Warman swears he did not make it; until it is proven otherwise I take him at his word.
    4. Racist thugs broke into Mr. Warman’s home in September 2003 and tried to frame him. Unlikely, but not impossible. I put it well ahead of wardriving and alien-abduction-style spoofing.

    On the basis of the evidence presented, no reasonable person could conclude, beyond reasonable doubt, that Richard Warman made the disgusting Anne Cools post.

    However, in my view, as an engineer who’s worked with DARPANet since the 80’s, and the Internet since then, there is certainly enough evidence at this stage to believe that, on the balance of evidence presented, if it is correct, Richard Warman’s computer was likely used to make the September 2003 Anne Cools post.

    This is emphatically not certainty, as I’ve stated above. But to dismiss the case with the arguments that Mike has made smacks of nothing but sophistry.

    I’ve no dog in this hunt, as southerners would say. I’m not a conservative blogger, and I don’t regularly post anywhere. (I’ve worked on Wikipedia for years, and I’ve made maybe 20 posts in the last 5 years. But this case has attracted my attention, partly because of the free speech elements, and also because (more recently) of the news about the very disturbing post smashing Senator Cools.

    Whoever made that post about Senator Cools is a contemptible excuse for a human being. If it was someone trying to smear Mr. Warman, then he or she is doubly contemptible. If it was Mr Warman himself… well, words fail me.

  • According to ARIN reverse lookup, the IP is owned by Rogers Cable:

    "OrgName: Rogers Cable Communications Inc. OrgID: RCC-104
    Address: One Mount Pleasant
    City: Toronto StateProv: ON
    PostalCode: M4Y-2Y5
    Country: CA
     NetRange: 66.185.80.066.185.95.255
    CIDR: 66.185.80.0/20
    NetName: ROGERS-CAB-104
    NetHandle: NET-66-185-80-0-1
    Parent: NET-66-0-0-0-0
    NetType: Direct Assignment
    NameServer: NS2.YM.RNC.NET.CABLE.ROGERS.COM
    NameServer: NS2.WLFDLE.RNC.NET.CABLE.ROGERS.COM
    NameServer: NS3.YM.RNC.NET.CABLE.ROGERS.COM
    NameServer: NS3.WLFDLE.RNC.NET.CABLE.ROGERS.COM
    Comment: RegDate: 2001-11-01 Updated: 2006-12-05
    OrgTechHandle: IPMAN-ARIN
    OrgTechName: IP MANAGE
    OrgTechPhone: +1-416-935-4729
    OrgTechEmail: [email protected]"

    As a customer of Rogers myself, I know they rotate their IP to residential users every 3 weeks or so. They also send their residential customers between netblocks – I have had IP addresses from this same 66.xx.xx.xx block, as well as from 72.xx.xx.xx, 74.xx.xx.xx and 99.xx.xx.xx That only evidence that whomever posted was doing so from a Rogers customer computer. Throw in a NAT, and you can’t even tell which computer it was. Consider an open wifi access point and it could have been someone wardriving. None of this so far indicated Warman. It is no evidence at all. Christ I hate amateurs who think IP logs are written in stone.

  • Well, as the old saying goes "What goes around, comes around" (or maybe a better quote to use would be the old Forrest Gump "Stupid is as Stupid does"). Why anyone would think that they could post stuff like that online and not get in any kind of crap in this day and age is just beyond me. Lord knows it’s situations like these that make me thankful I take the time to think about what I write and choose my words very carefully.

  • The IP in question 66.185.84.204 seems to lead back to a public computer.

  • People should not treat IP logs as if they are the immutable word of God. Aside from the normal way in which an IP can pass from one person to another, or how many authors can use the same IP, etc… one cannot ignore that IP Logs can be changed after the fact.

    I make no accusations. I merely state a fact people should not forget

  • […] Whoever made that post about Senator Cools is a contemptible excuse for a human being. If it was someone trying to smear Mr. Warman, then he or she is doubly contemptible. If it was Mr Warman himself… well, words fail me. holmwood, scott’s diatribe […]

  • […] bet Scott Tribe a paypal buck Warman does not sue. But, hey, I’ve been wrong before. After all, if Warman […]

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