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	<title>Comments on: Liberals release proposals to make prorogation harder to do, but is it enough?</title>
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	<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/</link>
	<description>My personal opinions on social and political issues from a progressive standpoint.</description>
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		<title>By: Wilf Day</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22434</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilf Day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22434</guid>
		<description>Yes, I&#039;m a long-time New Democrat but local people trust me to be non-partisan when required, which I got lots of practice doing during 12 years as a school trustee, and currently as a board member of Fair Vote Canada with several Liberals and Conservatives.

I don&#039;t see Ignatieff&#039;s proposal as significantly different from what Jack Layton said, and I expect they can agree on a composite. However, I may be mistaken: perhaps Ignatieff&#039;s proposal needs to be improved, as Scott implies.

I see no constitutional issue. Every law binds the Governor-General-In-Council (the cabinet). No one has suggested the new rule should affect the GG&#039;s reserve power to refuse prorogation in extraordinary circumstances -- although that reserve power would never be needed if the House had to approve prorogation.

I personally don&#039;t want to limit the discussion to prorogation. I favour the German rule that early dissolution requires a vote of the House. Our so-called fixed date election law can be amended so it means what it seems to say. We would then have a rule that anyone can understand: the House adjourns, prorogues and dissolves by its own motion.

That&#039;s actually my main concern: simplicity. We saw 13 months ago that huge numbers of Canadians don&#039;t understand the parliamentary system. This is partly the fault of the news media who rush to be the first to declare &quot;who won?&quot; on election night, even when the right answer is &quot;no majority&quot; or as the British news media say &quot;no overall control&quot; as they commonly say of municipal elections run on party labels.

So if it&#039;s not simple, the news media will over-simplify it and confuse the public -- again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I&#8217;m a long-time New Democrat but local people trust me to be non-partisan when required, which I got lots of practice doing during 12 years as a school trustee, and currently as a board member of Fair Vote Canada with several Liberals and Conservatives.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see Ignatieff&#8217;s proposal as significantly different from what Jack Layton said, and I expect they can agree on a composite. However, I may be mistaken: perhaps Ignatieff&#8217;s proposal needs to be improved, as Scott implies.</p>
<p>I see no constitutional issue. Every law binds the Governor-General-In-Council (the cabinet). No one has suggested the new rule should affect the GG&#8217;s reserve power to refuse prorogation in extraordinary circumstances &#8212; although that reserve power would never be needed if the House had to approve prorogation.</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t want to limit the discussion to prorogation. I favour the German rule that early dissolution requires a vote of the House. Our so-called fixed date election law can be amended so it means what it seems to say. We would then have a rule that anyone can understand: the House adjourns, prorogues and dissolves by its own motion.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s actually my main concern: simplicity. We saw 13 months ago that huge numbers of Canadians don&#8217;t understand the parliamentary system. This is partly the fault of the news media who rush to be the first to declare &#8220;who won?&#8221; on election night, even when the right answer is &#8220;no majority&#8221; or as the British news media say &#8220;no overall control&#8221; as they commonly say of municipal elections run on party labels.</p>
<p>So if it&#8217;s not simple, the news media will over-simplify it and confuse the public &#8212; again.</p>
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		<title>By: Skinny Dipper</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22430</link>
		<dc:creator>Skinny Dipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 21:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22430</guid>
		<description>I am not a member of either the Liberals or NDP.  I do prefer the NDP proposal because it is simple and straight forward.  While I think the NDP recognizes that the governor-general could prorogue parliament at any time, its proposal recognizes that parliament should have a voice in expressing support for any prorogation.  As for the Liberal proposal, there are too many exceptions in not letting parliament have legitimacy in deciding on prorogation.  Also constitutionally, the PM has no standing.  Everything is done through the approval of the governor-general.  How could a Liberal private-member&#039;s bill be written that recognizes the executive through the governor-general while not mentioning the prime minister?

In my opinion, the problem is not prorogation alone.  It&#039;s the selection of our governor-general.  Who chooses this person?  Officially, it&#039;s the Queen; unofficially, it&#039;s the prime minister.  Should parliament select the governor-general/president or should Canadians vote for a president?  Should we just keep the same system?  Today&#039;s GG is only responsible to the Queen.  Should we have an executive leader responsible to parliament or Canadian citizens directly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not a member of either the Liberals or NDP.  I do prefer the NDP proposal because it is simple and straight forward.  While I think the NDP recognizes that the governor-general could prorogue parliament at any time, its proposal recognizes that parliament should have a voice in expressing support for any prorogation.  As for the Liberal proposal, there are too many exceptions in not letting parliament have legitimacy in deciding on prorogation.  Also constitutionally, the PM has no standing.  Everything is done through the approval of the governor-general.  How could a Liberal private-member&#8217;s bill be written that recognizes the executive through the governor-general while not mentioning the prime minister?</p>
<p>In my opinion, the problem is not prorogation alone.  It&#8217;s the selection of our governor-general.  Who chooses this person?  Officially, it&#8217;s the Queen; unofficially, it&#8217;s the prime minister.  Should parliament select the governor-general/president or should Canadians vote for a president?  Should we just keep the same system?  Today&#8217;s GG is only responsible to the Queen.  Should we have an executive leader responsible to parliament or Canadian citizens directly?</p>
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		<title>By: slg</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22429</link>
		<dc:creator>slg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 20:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22429</guid>
		<description>Wilf Day - a lawyer from Port Hope and a staunch NDP&#039;r.  Wouldn&#039;t be happy with any proposal other than that of the NDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilf Day &#8211; a lawyer from Port Hope and a staunch NDP&#8217;r.  Wouldn&#8217;t be happy with any proposal other than that of the NDP.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Francis</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22427</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22427</guid>
		<description>Harper did no break the &#039;fixed-date election law.&#039; He simply always lied about what it actually said (PM must call an election at least every four years).

Harper, with that law, seems to agree that the PM can be forced to use his powers by Parliament, which is the same as limiting his power. So it may be possible to limit how the PM uses prorogation.

The problem is, what if the PM asks anyway? The GG can&#039;t be bound by an Act of Parliament.

There has to be an enforceable penalty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harper did no break the &#8216;fixed-date election law.&#8217; He simply always lied about what it actually said (PM must call an election at least every four years).</p>
<p>Harper, with that law, seems to agree that the PM can be forced to use his powers by Parliament, which is the same as limiting his power. So it may be possible to limit how the PM uses prorogation.</p>
<p>The problem is, what if the PM asks anyway? The GG can&#8217;t be bound by an Act of Parliament.</p>
<p>There has to be an enforceable penalty.</p>
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		<title>By: rww</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22425</link>
		<dc:creator>rww</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22425</guid>
		<description>Looking at the conditions as they stand I can think of no reason why we should go without a Parliament for more than a week so I would change the maximum prorogation period from a month to a week.

Adding provisions preventing the government from amending the Parliamentary calendar without near unanimous consent would prevent the government from recessing the House to avoid facing the opposition.

That being said I do not think you can really constitutionalize or even legislate that a government not abuse the prorogation power because it is not so much a matter of what they do but why they do it. That is why we give the GG discretionary power. 

What we need is a constitutional convention that when there is a conflict between the wishes of the Prime Minister and a majority of the House of Commons, that the wishes of House of Commons (as made known to the GG in any way) must prevail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the conditions as they stand I can think of no reason why we should go without a Parliament for more than a week so I would change the maximum prorogation period from a month to a week.</p>
<p>Adding provisions preventing the government from amending the Parliamentary calendar without near unanimous consent would prevent the government from recessing the House to avoid facing the opposition.</p>
<p>That being said I do not think you can really constitutionalize or even legislate that a government not abuse the prorogation power because it is not so much a matter of what they do but why they do it. That is why we give the GG discretionary power. </p>
<p>What we need is a constitutional convention that when there is a conflict between the wishes of the Prime Minister and a majority of the House of Commons, that the wishes of House of Commons (as made known to the GG in any way) must prevail.</p>
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		<title>By: Big Winnie</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22424</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Winnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22424</guid>
		<description>I think one way to prevent majority governments from being able to prorogue parliament is to have it worded that unless the governing party gets 100% of the vote from the House, then they are unable to prorogue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one way to prevent majority governments from being able to prorogue parliament is to have it worded that unless the governing party gets 100% of the vote from the House, then they are unable to prorogue.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilf Day</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22423</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilf Day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22423</guid>
		<description>It has more fine print than I expected. For some reason, prorogation will be allowed even without the consent of the House, provided that

1. More than a year has passed since the last throne speech, AND

2. The prorogation is for no more than a month, AND

3. No confidence matter has been scheduled, AND

4. The Prime Minister has given 10 days written notice with reasons, AND

5. The House has had the opportunity for a full debate (but not a vote.)

All those conditions would rarely be met. I would think it simpler to just require the consent of the House in all cases. But the exception seems harmless enough that I&#039;m not that concerned, at first glance. But I stand to be corrected. If the exception is so harmless, why even bother with it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has more fine print than I expected. For some reason, prorogation will be allowed even without the consent of the House, provided that</p>
<p>1. More than a year has passed since the last throne speech, AND</p>
<p>2. The prorogation is for no more than a month, AND</p>
<p>3. No confidence matter has been scheduled, AND</p>
<p>4. The Prime Minister has given 10 days written notice with reasons, AND</p>
<p>5. The House has had the opportunity for a full debate (but not a vote.)</p>
<p>All those conditions would rarely be met. I would think it simpler to just require the consent of the House in all cases. But the exception seems harmless enough that I&#8217;m not that concerned, at first glance. But I stand to be corrected. If the exception is so harmless, why even bother with it?</p>
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		<title>By: SteveV</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22422</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22422</guid>
		<description>Just to add, I noticed you posted these proposals on the FB group.  Quite a different reaction from &quot;just trust us&quot; last week.  That says something to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add, I noticed you posted these proposals on the FB group.  Quite a different reaction from &#8220;just trust us&#8221; last week.  That says something to me.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveV</title>
		<link>http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/2010/01/25/liberals-release-proposals-to-make-prorogation-harder-to-do-but-is-it-enough/comment-page-1/#comment-22421</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottdiatribe.canflag.com/?p=7603#comment-22421</guid>
		<description>&quot;In a sense, I get the feeling these proposals would be most effective in that it would allow public opinion time to gauge whether the government was justified in doing a prorogation or not. I’m not sure that would be enough to dissuade future governments,&quot;

Isn&#039;t that rub though Scott?  These proposals force the government into the open, they must justify proroguing and all the implications.  Public opinion is a key consideration, if the government knows scrutiny awaits, a slower process that allows Canadians to digest the rationale, they better have good reasons.  For instance, this prorogue never happens if these rules were in place.  Imagine the opposition, imagine the debate, they wouldn&#039;t even consider.  Harper tried to hide this prorogue with the new year&#039;s eve decision, he didn&#039;t want any light of day.

As for majorities, I&#039;m not sure what you do there.  At the very least, the government still must bring its reasoning forth, but ultimately they have the power.  It still protects a basic premise about our democracy, namely the majority rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In a sense, I get the feeling these proposals would be most effective in that it would allow public opinion time to gauge whether the government was justified in doing a prorogation or not. I’m not sure that would be enough to dissuade future governments,&#8221;</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that rub though Scott?  These proposals force the government into the open, they must justify proroguing and all the implications.  Public opinion is a key consideration, if the government knows scrutiny awaits, a slower process that allows Canadians to digest the rationale, they better have good reasons.  For instance, this prorogue never happens if these rules were in place.  Imagine the opposition, imagine the debate, they wouldn&#8217;t even consider.  Harper tried to hide this prorogue with the new year&#8217;s eve decision, he didn&#8217;t want any light of day.</p>
<p>As for majorities, I&#8217;m not sure what you do there.  At the very least, the government still must bring its reasoning forth, but ultimately they have the power.  It still protects a basic premise about our democracy, namely the majority rules.</p>
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