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In other news, I’m not a Conservative supporter.

Most unsurprising news story I’ve seen in awhile:

The National Rifle Association, a powerful lobbying group in the United States that advocates fewer gun controls, has been actively involved in trying to abolish Canada’s long-gun registry for more than a decade, CBC News has learned. Documents and correspondence obtained by the CBC show the NRA has provided logistical and tactical support to organizations such as the Canadian Institute for Legislative Action (CILA), established in 1998 to lobby Ottawa to shut down the registry.

Meanwhile, we’ve discovered the Conservative Party of Canada is now running or about to run giant billboard ads in rural opposition party ridings designed to try and pressure them to vote to kill the long-gun registry. When was the last time a government ran full length billboard ads for a “private members bill”? Answer: It hasn’t.. and this is one more example/proof that this is a government bill put in PMB form to try and get it to pass under sneaky circumstances, many that have been documented by me and others elsewhere.

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59 comments to In other news, I’m not a Conservative supporter.

  • Redrum

    What?! First, these were Canadian hunting guide groups complaining about Air Canada’s, weren’t they: not NRA members. Second, you think it’s a trivial affair — in the post-911 age — that the NRA was intervening for the RIGHT TO CARRY GUNS ONTO PLANES, UNENCUMBERED? Jeez, give yourself a shake. Third, how is a penny-ante online petition such a big deal? That’s our democracy, which entails the right to make even uninformed protests, which you lot are trying to crush in the bud, perversely, in the name of “free speech.” As for the criminal investigations and lawsuits they’re launching for fraud and slander, respectively, that’s because those are crimes which even pretend “fair and balanced” media personalities have to abide by.

    • Redrum

      cont’d, also, as some sharp-eared Lib bloggers noticed, as far as Kory’s concerned, this falls into the category of “Careful What You Bitch For,” aka, being hoist by one’s own petard:

      During his little set-to with the Avaaz director, Teneycke muttered, “What if the NRA came into Canada with …trying to influence Canadian policy and Canadian decisions? People would be outraged. People. would. be. outraged.”

      Well, they have: not with petitions & ads in Canada, but by helping to set up its Canadian wing, the gun lobby group, the Canadian Institute for Legislative Action and continuing to give it ongoing technical advice, and by supplying the people like Gary Mauser & Garry Breitkreuz with talking points and lines of evidence which they pass on to all their acoyltes: much the same way the PMO does with _its_ talking points to its house organ, QMI.

      • Redrum

        p.s., I stand corrected: the NRA _did_ produce one ad(vertorial) calling for the ban of the LGR which, altho’ on an American network, was run in Canada for those who got it on cable or satellite: CBC clip on that here:

        www + .youtube.com/watch?v=UZkMI–PMPk

        • Redrum

          @ Sun’s fawning fanboy, and here’s what Jon Stewart had to say last week about your & Ezra’s & the other paranoiacs’ slurs against Soros:

          “Everyone’s favorite hysterical reactionary, Michelle Malkin, has many dumb things to say, all the time. This week, she took aim at Hungarian-born Jewish billionaire investor and Obama supporter George Soros, who donated $100 million to international nonprofit Human Rights Watch.

          Malkin writes, “The anti-Israel bias of HRW is so brazen that liberal lawyer Alan Dershowitz took to the blogosphere to denounce it,” conveniently neglecting to mention that Alan Dershowitz thinks everyone who does not agree with his every thought is, in fact, a bloodthirsty anti-Semite. Malkin then directs folks to this “must-read” by Ezra Levant, which reads, in part…

          When the Nazis took total control of Hungary in 1944, the Holocaust followed. In two months, 440,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to death camps.

          To survive, George, then a teenager, collaborated with the Nazis.

          First, he worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis to do their dirty work for them. Instead of the Nazis rounding up Jews every day for the trains, they delegated that murderous task to Jews who were willing to do it to survive another day at the expense of their neighbours.

          Levant later adds, “By collaborating with the Nazis, George survived the Holocaust. He turned on other Jews to spare himself.”

          Here’s an exciting thought. Let’s see what Soros himself actually says about that time, in a handy-dandy 1994 interview with The New Republic…

          “The Jewish Council asked the little kids to hand out the deportation notices. I was told to go to the Jewish Council. And there I was given these small slips of paper. It was three or four lines. It said report to the rabbi seminary at 9 a.m. tomorrow morning. Bring a blanket and food for twenty-four hours. And I was given a list of names. I took this piece of paper to my father. He instantly recognized it, you see. This was a list of Hungarian Jewish lawyers. He said, ‘You deliver the slips of paper and tell the people that if they report they will be deported.’ I’m not sure to what extent he knew they were going to be gassed. I did what my father said. There was one man I shall not forget. I took it to him and told him what my father had said. He said: ‘Tell your father that I am a law-abiding citizen, that I have always been a law-abiding citizen and I am not going to start breaking the law now.’ And that stayed with me forever.”

          So, this kid, who was 14 years old at the time, collaborated with his father to give Jews potentially life-saving information about the true nature of the Nazis’ intent. If any Nazis had gotten word that he and his father were tipping Jews off to their deportation, George and his father would most likely have been “deported” themselves — i.e., sent to a death camp and gassed.

          That’s what thinking humans would call a “risk.” Some might even call it bravery. George Soros is a complex and controversial individual, but he’s also an incredibly generous philanthropist. But Michelle Malkin mostly just likes to smear people, with lies and probably with poop, also. This is because she is a human poopstain. Unlike George Soros, she will never help millions of people around the world. She will just remain a poopstain, pooping her poop onto computer screens around Real AmeriKKKa. She is the doody tractor on the clean white underpants of the Internet.”

          Get out of the poop Ridenrain, and out of the Sun: together, they’ve made you into one giant turd.

  • ridenrain

    That’s all from your perspective but it’s still a far larger event than the NRA stepping into a lawsuit to defend one of their members.

  • ridenrain

    .. an inconsequential lawsuit that I never saw before.. and I look for that sort of thing. It’s hardly a comparison.
    Are they running a full media political campaign like Avaaz is? How much is Avaaz, MoveOn.org and Soros spending here in Canada.. and what did Iggy promise Peloci in return?

    • Redrum

      @ridenrain, what ‘full media campaign’? They have a website: they advocate certain things, like, say, rabble.ca does here. People who like what they see sign up as members. They email their members to say, hey, we’ve got a petition you might want to sign. Some 30,000 or so did. Atwood did, and tweeted that she did. __THat’s_ when it became a media story: when Tenekye jumped on that and set out to demonize her, and it backfired, and then the media started to interview the Avaaz guy & then the Sun slandered her & them some more, & they got tens of thousands more sig’s than they ever would have. Their plan was just to send out a prss release once they hit 50,000 sigs., and it’s net effect would have been… yawn. There may have been some snickers about the fear-mongering hand wringers, you conbots would’ve got all excited, but the MSM would’ve just ignored the whole thing. But, no, Kory either panicked and over-reacted or gambled that the free publicity would help their ratings, or something, but you’re nuts to think that they’re some great big media force threatening what’s good & holy in this country…. most everyone, incl. me, had never heard of them before, and probably never will again once this case is over, except as an anecdote to use in future digs.

  • ridenrain

    Your right.. We got the sequence of events wrong. We should have had them work at the CBC, THEN run for leader of the party.

    I don’t see the NRA running petitions or lawsuits in Canada. Exactly what credability does Avaaz have in Canada?

    • Redrum

      @blindenlama, you don’t see, alright, but then, you don’t look unless its on a Blue site. The link I provided above shows the NRA was actively involved in intervening in a Cndn administrative (Transpo) board hearing on behalf of hunters WHO WANT TO BRING GUNS ON PLANES, and that was kinda like a lawsuit. But Avaaz is only calling in the law & the lawyer because someone — probably you-know-who — committed fraud so that the Sun could try to discredit the petition. ANd BTW, apparently Soros himself is now suing Ezra Levant & the Sun for the a recent article & blog post of his making those scurrilous attacks on his character that you repeated here (and, so, what’s your real name again), which, again, all underscores the fact that they were dead on about this fledgling media network and its supporters being a bunch of deceiving hate mongers that should not receive any special rules or subsidies to help it flourish. Let it sink or swim on its own terms, but don’t let it cheat and lies to get what it wants…. which is to ruin the country.

  • ridenrain

    Yeah… He ranks up there with outher great hero’s like Marice Strong. lol.

    Kinsella seems to be able to denounce Soros from meddling in Canadian affairs, yet you people can’t even acknowledge that they exist.

    http://warrenkinsella.com/2010/09/the-dictionary-definition-of-unseemly/

    • Jon Pertwee

      @ridofbrain, strange thing that the rest of us who don’t live in Conbot land can make up our minds huh? you seem to have a contempt for individual opinion ridofbrain. We’re you always branded the follower in the group? You seem to play the Conbot sheep role beautifully; with the exception of your spelling.

      Conbot rule #1 – When you have no defense, change the subject. Also known as the CanadianSense method.

      Ridofbrain rule #1 – Screw up the talking point royally.

    • Redrum

      @rideaucanal, since you’re so fixated from skating away from the NRA issue to this one, try this on for size: there were two big developments on this Fox News North thing over the past 24 hours which suggest that the Avaaz folks were bang on, about their warnings about what SunTV is and will be up to:

      first, from the timing (a resignation the very next day a high-powered lawyer formally called for an RCMP & police investigation of the fraudulent petition entries), it sure looks like there were some dirty tricks afoot.

      second, look at the replacement: Luc Lavoie, who is, a) another former spokesman for the Conservative party (so again, the network’s still on track to be a propaganda rather than a “free speech” organ); and, b) who was recently reported to have been asked to fill the newly vacated vice-chair of broadcasting seat on the CRTC… the ones tasked with deciding their rather extraordinary request for a (non-existent category of) “must offer” Class-2 license… but was holding out for the Chair position. And now he’s the VP of the very org. he would have been deciding whether or not to grant a license to, as an, ahem, “independent” civil servant.

      This is exactly what the petition was designed to protest, regardless of who may or may not be helping Avaaz pay its administrative costs.

      www + .ledevoir.com/politique/canada/295844/harper-voudrait-luc-lavoie-au-crtc

  • You ask: When was the last time a government ran full length billboard ads for a “private members bill”?

    There’s an obvious answer. They aren’t official Conservative billboards; they’re private members billboards.

    • Redrum

      @Scott Piatkowski, uh-huh. So Candice Hoeppner’s paying for all those billboards and attack radio ads on this issue this year herself, then? I’ll bet Elections Canada will say differently.

  • ridenrain

    You must have missed where György Schwartz and his step father moved about Nazi Hungary confiscating property from the Jewish population. “Soros has repeatedly called 1944 “the best year of his life.”” This has been reported over and over again by folks like Wall Street Journal and 60 minuets.
    Or the numerous accusations that he’s taken over the US Democratic party and fileld it with radicals and wingnuts. A brother in arms with Marurice Strong.

    • Jon Pertwee

      @ridenrain, Wall Street Journal, really Rupert Murdoch? 60 Minuets? ha ha ha.

    • Redrum

      @ribsprain, ye gods. So, you googled Soros and found that “Soros: Republic Enemy #1” By Jim O’Neill article.

      So, when he was 14 years old, he allegedly tagged along with someone passing him off as his Christian grandson for his own protection, while they did a ‘Repo Man’ type duty seizing the valuables of the Jewish people in Hungary for the Nazis, and he was either completely oblivious to the immorality of the situation, or he just rationalized it at the time as he later did in 1998 as (as Dr. John puts it, in “Such A Night”), “If I don’t do it, somebody else will.”

      Of course, since the transcript of the 60 Minutes interview this is based on _ends_ there, it’s hard to be sure that he didn’t go on to express his profound regret or shame for his collaborating, or at least more of an excuse for it (did he know the Jews were being killed? did he know the diff b/w right and wrong at 14? did he have ‘Stockholm syndrome’ identifying with the aggressor? Would any of us have behaved differently in his circumstances?)

      So the conclusion of the various articles which cite that interview that he’s a “sociopath” hardly seems justified, nor the inference (from that being “the best year of his life”) that he actually enjoyed it, since, again, these were smear job, selective quote interviews: he might have meant that 1944 was the best year of his life because he learned so much about human nature and about the evils of a totalatarian state that it both gave him the steely nerve he needed to be a ruthless, successful capitalist _and_ sensitized him to what needed to be done to prevent such atrocities from happening again.

      At any rate, the alleged personal amorality of the now George Soros is completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic here, which is that the NRA has been an active ally in shaping, guiding, and advancing the pro-gun lobby here in Canada.

  • ridenrain

    It seems quite acceptable for hypocrites like Atwood to enlist US media hacks like George Soros to fight against SUN media, all while crowing about freedom of speech. Here’s a hardcore Democrat spin machine working in Canada but you folks need to focus on a decade old “gotcha” journalism piece from the CBC?

    • TofKW

      @ridenrain, I think your tinfoil hat is on too tight. Soros has as much to do with anything going on in this country as the Koch brothers do (do I need to explain who they are?) …in other words not bloody much.

      However a US lobby group is actively working in our country to effect public policy. Regardless of who it is or what legislation they are attempting to lobby, I consider this a serious matter in of itself.

      But please continue ramping up the stupid here, just shows why you Reformatories are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 2006. Really if the CPofC could have picked a real leader instead of relying on Firewall Harper, that majority would have been yours long ago & the LGR would be history.

    • Redrum

      @ridenrain, re: Soros:

      First of all, we shouldn’t even be talking about him, except in passing, to point out the _Conservatives_’ hypocrisy, for objecting so vociferously to his being in the (deep) background of a small scale lobby movement of just days’ duration to stop their budding Pravda network from being able to extract automatic cable fees once it takes to the air nationally… while simultaneously welcoming the the decades long intervention of the self-described biggest lobby group in the U.S. to put more guns in our hands.

      That petition had absolutely nothing to do with the Liberal or NDP parties; most have disowned it as seeming to be misinformed about the type of license Sun’s seeking or to be fear-mongering w/r/t the level of the gov’t influence in trying to help it into being.

      But for you to try to stay on that changed channel, and describe Soros as “a US media hack”? Huh?

      Well, I wiki’ed him, and as usual, you’re talking out of your hat.

      First of all, he was born in Hungary of Jewish decent in 1930 & didn’t leave there until his teens to flee the Nazis (first, to England), so by your lights (if Liz May is an American), then he’s, um, Hungarian.

      Second, he made his money in the stock & money markets, not the media. His interest in the media came later, when he was a billionaire, & began _funding_ it as an act of philanthropy in the former USSR & other places, to promote things you guys are apparently hostile to: Open Society & democracy.

      • Jon Pertwee

        @Redrum, Ridofbrain must have achieved some milestone as stupidest Conbot online. Or at least the one with the reddest ass from getting smacked down so regularily.

        Then again, teh stupid it burns!

  • slg

    ridenrain – give it up. You make yourself sound so very gullible and stupid.

    Ridenrain attacks anyone that may have lived in the US – but, it’s okay for the NRA to influence Canadian politics – how dumb can you be

  • ridenrain

    No.. Americans like Elizabeth May.
    But while Iggy was an American he was a huge suck up to Bush, speaking and writting such good Conservative works on American exceptionalism. You remember that? We sure do.

    So what is the connection between Iggy and Soros?

  • ridenrain

    I thought since Obama, Peloci and George Soros were in charge, it was OK to like Americans like Ignatieff again?
    Cue the usual Liberal American hate…

    • Redrum

      @rideitdownbeforeyouforget, you mean Americans like Harper’s guru Tom Flanagan. Iggy actually spent a lot more time in England than in the US, you punter.

      • Jon Pertwee

        @Redrum, funny, Ive always thought Chav or Ned better suited a plonker like Ridofbrain.

      • James Bagan

        @Redrum, “Iggy actually spent a lot more time in England than in the US, you punter.”

        But he always made a point of visiting Algonquin Park.

        How long was he away from Canada? 20 years? Can we get an exact number of years please?

  • Harper wants more guns, more prisons, more war, more lobby group influence, less knowledge, less openness, less science. Why doesn’t he just come out and tell us he wants Canada to merge with the US? Oh yeah… Bush isn’t still in the White House.

    • Kring

      Citing Bush long after the fact that he is gone should be an extension of Godwin’s Law. You’re just being foolish now.

      • Redrum

        @Kring, “Citing Bush long after the fact…[is] just being foolish..”: ok, good, so maybe you lot will finally STFU about what Allan Rock said or thought about the purposes or cost of this thing 15 YEARS ago and concentrate on the here and now. But that would be expecting too much CONsistency isn’t your lot’s strongest suit (apart from being pathologically unable to resist tyring to con people, that is).

      • Jon Pertwee

        @Kring, Yeah right Kling. When is the statute of limitations for dumbasses like Fox News bringing up Clinton?

        Okay Kling, back to reprogramming from your conservative masters… Ignore those facts and stick to the conservative doublestandards.

  • ridenrain

    Oh no. That scary secret agenda again. Who would have guessed that one.

    • Jon Pertwee

      @ridenrain, Yeah isnt it amazing how Harper’s boneheaded decisions as of late have breathed new life into it.

      Funny, I guess to get rid of conservative all you have to do is use a conservative.

      Thanks for pointing it out Ridenrain.

    • Redrum

      @spinridearound, Uh-huh, and who would’ve guessed that many of the same right-wing Harpercrites who were crying foul, and shrieking at Margaret Atwood last week that she was a traitor for collaborating with an American-based org. to lobby against Sun-TV, are suddenly now turning on a dime to say, “Hey, nothing to see, here, folks….”

  • ck

    That Tony Bernardo; the Ontario gun nut & regular on NRA infomercials & talk shows featured in that CBC story. I wonder if he’s related to Paul?

  • Kring

    Why does it matter that the NRA may be involved when the LGR is still a monumental waste of money and effort?

    • ck

      @Kring, the yearly costs are pretty nominal, but I guess you didn’t pay attention to that, now did you? Those proposed super prisons and tough on crime bills would cost a hell of a lot more than the yearly operation of the Long Gun Registry.

      Why would you want to hide guns, Kring?

      • Kring

        CK, it doesn’t matter that the costs are “nominal” now. When it was supposed to be $2 million to start up, $2 billion is far, far too much for something that is a monumental waste of money, time, and effort. It boggles the mind. In fact it boondoggles the mind.

        Why don’t you want to punish criminals, CK?

        • Jon Pertwee

          @Kring, Why dont you have a problem with foreign organizations trying to influence our sovereignty Kring?

        • @Kring, If you built a house and the construction work went wildly over budget but the upkeep costs were modest, would you tear down the house?

          Why does the CPC encourage gun owners to disobey Cdn law by allowing them an amnesty on gun registration? Does the Harper government feel that Canadians should refuse to obey all laws with which they disagree? Why does Harper encourage lawlessness and refuse to prosecute criminals who won’t obey the law requiring them to register their deadly weapons? Why are the gun lobby and Harper government fighting the police?

        • Kring

          @Jon Pertwee, So how exactly should Canadians be interested in the NRA but not at all interested in the George Soros’ connection with Avaaz?

          Why do you have such an affinity for Liberal hypocrisy, Jon?

        • Kring

          @JimBobby, your analogy is nonsense. If I saw that the costs of the house were ONE THOUSAND times over budget, I would have cut my losses long before the house ever finished being built and sued the contractor.

          If they were allowed an amnesty, its because they know the registry is bullshit. That is sort of the point of them opposing it in the first place. Try and keep up.

          The PM isn’t doing any of those things. You’re just being silly now.

        • Redrum

          @Kring, there’s a fundamental difference b/w the two: Avaaz wants us to pressure the gov’t not to bend the rules by replacing the senior civil servants with puppets, to try to keep us safe from the type of fact-mangling, hate-mongering media that’s been ruining their country; whereas the NRA wants us to let the gov’t bend the rules by disguising a gov’t bill as a private member’s one, a bill that is part of the NRA’s larger effort to make us a much less safe, & more gun-crazy place like them. I.e., Avaaz is trying to protect what’s good about Canada & keep it from becoming like the USA while the NRA is trying to wreck us and make us more like them.

        • Jon Pertwee

          @Kling, that’s rich Kling. Attempt to change the topic and lob the hypocrite mantle onto me. Did I say I was a member of Avaaz? Do I have dinner at George Soros’ place? Of course I dont. Too much tinfoil Kling and far too tight on your head.

          So why do you have a problem with Canadian sovereignty? Do you just prefer America make all your decisions like Ridofbrain?

        • ck

          @Kring, Punish criminals, yes; real criminals who break real laws. Not those “unreported” criminals or those insipid laws Nicholson and Super Toews wish to implement. They do nothing to keep Canadians safe.

          The Long Gun Registry does.

        • Marie

          Kring; CK, it doesn’t matter that the costs are “nominal” now. When it was supposed to be $2 million to start up, $2 billion is far, far too much for something that is a monumental waste of money, time, and effort. It boggles the mind. In fact it boondoggles the mind.

          Why don’t you want to punish criminals, CK?

          Nobody but the Cons and his spin trools repeating their party lines are sayin nobody wants to punish the criminals. Get a life Kring and open that closed pea brain of yours. Stick to facts and not Con lies. You simply make yourself look underaged to the preschool levels.

        • Jon Pertwee

          @Kring, Ah George Soros, the new posterboy for conbots. Too bad Ridofbrain has been posting the botched Soros argument all over the internet. How about when you guys do some research and find some facts that dont dwell in the conbot imagination and get back to me.

          Hypocrisy, that is so owned by the Cons.

        • Jon Pertwee

          @Kring, just a bit more of Conservative hypocrisy for you

          “What if the NRA came in to Canada trying to influence policy and decision? People would be outraged!” – Kory Teneyke 03 09 10

      • JJ

        @ck, “They do nothing to keep Canadians safe.

        The Long Gun Registry does.”

        How?

        • Jon Pertwee

          @JJ, you can start by reading Redrum’s comments here http://scott diatribes.ca/2010/09/11/are-the-urbanquebec-tory-mps-representing-constituents-on-gun-registry/

          Im pretty sure that Redrum would be more than happy to educate you further.

        • Jon Pertwee

          @JJ, You can start with reading Redrum’s comments in this post “Are the urban/Quebec Tory MP’s representing constituents on gun registry?”. Im sure if you have trouble with that Redrum would be more than happy to break it down.

          So there you go, numbers and statistics. Empirical data that can be tested. Now, bring some back from the other side if there is any. So far its just been bluster.

        • JJ

          @JJ,
          Jon Pertwee “You can start with reading Redrum’s comments in this post “Are the urban/Quebec Tory MP’s representing constituents on gun registry?”. Im sure if you have trouble with that Redrum would be more than happy to break it down.”

          Yes, being that I’m just a dumb gun nut I probably have reading comprehension problems 😉

          I read through all the comments you refer to. While they’re full of the usual stats about the cost of the registry, the use of long guns vs. handguns, the likelihood of being killed by strangers vs. acquaintances, etc., there’s nothing that answers my very simple question in response to ck’s statement that the registry keeps Canadians safe:

          How?

          I am open to being convinced.

        • Redrum

          @JJ, if you’re serious about being open to considering evidence (and not just being a troll), I’ll give you a serious answer.

          I’ve just been working my way through all these stats for the past few weeks, and am still reading & gathering info to formulate the proper response to submit to the MPs, but here are the three main areas where there seems to be a discernible reductions which are attibutable to the whole of C-68, incl. the long gun registry, where a good argument can be made that the LGR is making a significant contribution to that which would reverse those improvements:

          1) in the number of accidental firearms deaths, which have dropped dramatically over a number of intervals every time some gun control measures were introduced, which led to better handling, storage, & transfers & produced a lot more accountability (& trackability of the offending weapons)…. and so reduced the number of kids getting into them & killing themselves or their friends (cuz the registered owners are safeguarding their guns more & reporting them when they’re missing etc. and not being as lax about who they loan or sell them to, cuz if they’re used in a crime or mishap it’ll come back to them).

          As part & parcel of that, I’ll bet the number of non-lethal firearms accidents has gone way down cuz of C-68, too, but that data’s hard to come by: i.e., it’s not published one way or another, for Canada, except for isolated years, and then for ones treated in Emergency Dep’ts.

          2) Most of the studies of how the homicide or suicide rates have reduced have lacked statistical rigor and can’t rule out it happening for any of a no. of reasons, but two recent Criminology theses apparently have:

          Gagné, M. P. (2008). L’effet des législations canadiennes entourant le contrôle des armes à feu sur les homicides et les suicides (Mémoire de maîtrise). Université de Montréal.

          (a version of which is appearing in a peer-reviewed journal soon co-authored by her thesis advisor, Étienne Blais, and one other grad student, I. Linteau, as “L’effet des lois en matière de contrôle des armes à feu sur les homicides au Canada, 1974-2004,” forthcoming in Revue canadienne de criminologie et de justice pénale.)

          They estimate that Bill C-68 has prevented an average of 50 homicides and 250 suicides per year in Canada over the whole interval of 1998-2004 (and, yes, they take into account the substition or tactical displacement effects of switching to other means of killing).

          And Isabelle Linteau’s new 2010 thesis (Analyse des bornes extrêmes et le contrôle des armes à feu: l’effet de la Loi C-68 sur les homicides au Québec) looked at just the Quebec data, and found a statistically signficant, gradual reduction in just the long-gun homicides in QC attributable to the LGR, from 2001 on.

          3) Given the both its effect in reducing the no. of old guns lying around & in helping the police know when they’re dealing with perps with big caches of them, I also suspect C-68s brought about a big drop in the number and toll of (admittedly rare) “going postal” events: both the spousal murder-suicides /familicides, and the work- and arrest- and general grievance related ones. Admittedly, that data’s a lot harder to come by. I was disappointed by the RCMP report for not providing any indicators on that.

          4) There’s also an area the police are being too mum about (since that’s what the gun folks are complaining about) which may be enhancing public safety, and that’s how the registry makes their job of arresting & prosecuting easier, by being able to get warrants on people with beaucoup guns, which may lead to getting more whackos off the street and seize their guns and prosecute them on lesser crimes, before they go on to go postal. But that’s just a suspicion on my part, at this stage.

        • kmartin

          @JJ, ok Redrum I have to pick apart your serious answer here just incase anyone misread the OBVIOUS.

          In point #1. n the number of accidental firearms deaths, which have dropped dramatically over a number of intervals every time some gun control measures were introduced, which led to better handling, storage, & transfers & produced a lot more accountability (& trackability of the offending weapons)…. and so reduced the number of kids getting into them & killing themselves or their friends

          this is because of better laws concerning storage ie locking cabinets trigger locks etc. I dont see how traceability had anything to do with reducing the deaths?

          #2. Most of the studies of how the homicide or suicide rates have reduced have lacked statistical rigor and can’t rule out it happening for any of a no. of reasons, but two recent Criminology theses apparently have:

          this says it all…Most studies lacked statistical rigor and can’t rule out it happening for any of a no. of reasons.

          two recent Criminology theses…Gagné, M. P. (2008) “L’effet des lois en matière de contrôle des armes à feu sur les homicides au Canada, 1974-2004,

          these are recent??

          #3. Given the both its effect in reducing the no. of old guns lying around & in helping the police know when they’re dealing with perps with big caches of them, I also suspect C-68s brought about a big drop in the number and toll of (admittedly rare) “going postal” events

          I SUSPECT????? that is your hard evidence here?? OK

          Ok..1 fair point here..yes it has reduced the number of old guns laying around because many people just didn’t want to bother. but this still goes back to the point that the “PERPS” usually don’t register them but posses stolen guns WHICH..which have been reported stolen by a registered owner. But that still doesn’t help the police know where the stolen guns are.

          #4. There’s also an area the police are being too mum about…..

          why are they being mum if they are all in favor? I would think they would be screaming this point out loud to show how it helps? This point makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

          But that’s just a suspicion on my part, at this stage.

          Hardly a serious answer but more speculation.

          Look. I am all for gun control but the arguments that both sides come up with have valid points for both. Like I said before. If there was a true INDEPENDENT study done and the results could be released to the general public then hold a country wide referendum!

          I read everyday the Toronto papers about all the shootings and never hear a word about how the registry was used to track down a criminal. I have heard about the gun used in a crime being stolen weeks months years before but after the fact it is stolen and the cops now have no idea where it is so how does that help?

        • Redrum

          @kmartin, um, selectively quoting parts our of context isn’t exactly “pick[ing] apart”; Jon Stewart did a piece on that the other night about the way people misquote Obama.

          e.g., on the studies: they _are_ recent: the 2008 thesis, which is still untranslated & unpublished so not many have seen it (it’s the _data_ it examines which goes all the way back to 1974 right up to 2004, which was the most recent available data when she was doing the work), the other thesis was just completed in Août – i.e., August 2010: last month!; and the journal article based on both is in press (i.e., about to be published, any day now).

          Similarly, I explained why the registration component may be contributing to fewer accidents, but you left that out.

          And I’m making arrangements to _get_ the newer data on the spousal murder/suicides, but if they don’t work out, note, there’s going be be a whole slew of new StatCan crime data reports coming out in about a month, when they release the 2009 data, and, if they haven’t been muzzled from doing any pertinent analysis, there should be some updates of a bonch of things they’ve looked at over time involving firearms.

          Remember, including the not-yet released 2009, there’s only been six complete years of collected crime report data since the LGR was supposed to fully operational & complplete of of Dec. 31, 2003, while most of the articles on the homicide & suicide data left off in 2005 or 2006, when it had only been operation for a couple of years. It’s like trying to track the effect of seat belt laws or speed limits on… just trucks. It takes a while to get all the relevant data in & to get someone with the expertise to do the right statistical tests on it. The RCMP have certainly shown that they’re not very good at evaluation… they’re probably not even collecting the right sorts of data & incident reports, e.g., the that doesn’t mean the thing’s useless, just that they’re pretty clueless about how to demonstrate that it’s not.

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